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6. A competent scholar with a working knowledge of:
(a) Educational foundations

Web Chat Room Log

This is a log of the first chat that some of the members of the Forum ONE! group engaged in.  The participants were Dr Shirley Freed (Instructor), Dan Applegate, David Heise, and Mario Ochoa.  Several other significant discussions took place in the chat room, but the logs for those sessions were not obtained.

This is Instructor Mario - too bad - I hope we haven't lost David and Dan and Sheila - they have all been on
Instructor let's go to the big room - click below the separate rooms
Mario Ochoa I don't see them in the list of users
Mario Ochoa OK
->->->-> Dan Applegate connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:42:10
Dan Applegate that was easy
->->->-> David Heise connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:42:24
->->->-> Instructor_#2 connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:42:30
Instructor_#2 Wow - you got in here fast
->->->-> Mario Ochoa_#2 connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:42:53
David Heise But you got in here twice!
Instructor_#2 that wasn't easy
Dan Applegate I know we haven't addressed questions, but I have learned a lot tonight.
Instructor_#2 Mario - tell us how you resolved your technology problems?
David Heise Has anyone else been annoyed at the large size of the Quit button? In my first visit, I was switching between windows and at least 3 times click on the end of the button to active a hidden screen, and quit by mistake each time.
Instructor_#2 that hasn't happened to me - at least not that I was aware of:>
David Heise I am more careful now :)
Instructor_#2 Mario - you hit enter after typing your message - ok
->->->-> Mario Ochoa_#3 connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:46:46
David Heise Mario hits the lead with 3 incarnations!
Instructor_#2 Mario - you hit enter after typing your message - don't laugh you guys - he can't see the message I wrote before
Mario Ochoa That's why I got to get out and come back again, now with three incarnations
David Heise As I remarked earlier, I had help from a 14-year old to tell me about pressing the Enter key to send a message.
Instructor_#2 that's ok - are you alright? what's happening? - Mario
Mario Ochoa_#3 It must be the weight of my three souls keeping me from the main screen.
David Heise Ooh. Nearly clicked Quit by mistake.
David Heise ??Dan?? Is this your correct address? dapplega@remc11.k12.mi.us
Instructor_#2 Well - all you need Mario is one soul to talk to us!
Dan Applegate yes it is Dave. that is my work e-mail.
Mario Ochoa  got all your messages, but I kept replying to myself with private messages soul
Mario Ochoa_#3 Now, I have a real mess here
Instructor_#2 how many of yourselves is highlighted?
Mario Ochoa_#3 None actually
David Heise Hey, there are 2 Marios talking. Click a highlighted name again to deselect it.
Instructor_#2 Now how does that happen?
Mario Ochoa_#3 I am not highlighted, and when I tried to delete a soul it sent me a private message
Instructor_#2 Dan - are you laughing?????
Dan Applegate I'm still laughing.
Instructor_#2 Mario - stop talking to yourself!!
Dan Applegate Sorry Dave, the "I'm still laughing" was suppose to be general
David Heise I can't hear Mario either, and there are 3 of him!
David Heise Dan, we all heard the laughing, ie, it was general...
Instructor_#2 Well - at least he has the opposite problem of Sheila!
Instructor_#2 Mario - that is
David Heise Yep. Three Mario's all still connected. But to what?
Instructor_#2 his souls!
Dan Applegate Was that "secret thing" I said about Shirley public too?
Instructor_#2 Yup!!
Instructor_#2 No - I'm teasing!
David Heise Bad taste! :)
->->->-> Mario Ochoa_#4 connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:58:06
Dan Applegate so was I.
David Heise 4th incarnation!!!
Instructor_#2 now there's four Mario's
David Heise But still silent?
Instructor_#2 Mario - welcome welcome welcome welcome
David Heise Welcome * 4
<-<-<-<- Mario Ochoa_#4 disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:59:06
<-<-<-<- Mario Ochoa_#2 disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:59:06
<-<-<-<- Mario Ochoa disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:59:06
<-<-<-<- Mario Ochoa_#3 disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 20:59:06
Instructor_#2 Dan - I happen to love teasing! bad taste or not!!
David Heise Way, way back, I am sure someone had a deep and meaningful question that we did not answer. Anyone recall?
David Heise Bad taste :) was a tease too...
Dan Applegate David, you're going to lower my grade.
Instructor_#2 yes - I wondered about problem=based learning with technology and wondered what it would be like to have David in the chat room - talking about technology
David Heise Nah, we're both getting A+s for participation, surely?
David Heise Oh yes. I'm in the chat room.
Instructor_#2 yes -no - whatever - question I'm commenting on -
Instructor_#2 I give up - notice the meaningful question!!
Dan Applegate David, has already given me some advice.
David Heise Sorry, where was the question? :)
Instructor_#2 but think about this as a problem that goes on and on and on
Instructor_#2 Mario is gone with all of his souls - how sad!!
David Heise ITS (Information Technology Services) is currently deep into a strategic planning exercise, and I have all sorts of ideas about what technology could be doing all across campus.
Dan Applegate How about for our program?
Instructor_#2 what if the problem is technology competence and the leadership program - I know you have serious tech issues David - do you think the rest of us could understand them or care about them?
Instructor_#2 David - remember that technology group from last summer - maybe we should resurrect that for the conference this year?
David Heise Each of us is writing our own specific objectives for all the relevant goals we have identified. It is in a Word document. I emailed it with a routing slip that means each person on the slip gets to insert their pieces into the document then mail it on to the next one. I have not tried this at Andrews before, so I am waiting with baited breath to see what happens.
Instructor_#2 and since Dan is getting so good he should join the group
David Heise *(&^$*^&*% It scrolled off before I even finished reading it.
Instructor_#2 sorry David - I'll get to yours
->->->-> Mario Ochoa connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 21:05:52
David Heise Mario's back.
Dan Applegate I could join the group. Someone has to unwind and wind up the power cords.
David Heise Yes about Dan and the group. A local active core would make a difference.
Mario Ochoa Sorry , I went to my attic to get my old typewriter!
David Heise Is that a figure of speech, Mario?
Instructor_#2 Mario - we are so glad you have left your other souls in the attic
Mario Ochoa It is more reliable than my Mac
->->->-> Dan Applegate_#2 connected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 21:07:16
Dan Applegate_#2 I got kicked out again
David Heise Another Dan has joined us!
Mario Ochoa I transfer my souls to him
Instructor_#2 Dan - are you suggesting you need help with cords - as well as souls?
<-<-<-<- Dan Applegate disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 21:08:16
Dan Applegate_#2 Demons be gone!
Instructor_#2 don't talk to me like that!
Mario Ochoa This is an epidemic of souls tonight!
Dan Applegate_#2 There is only one of me, I have found my center.
Instructor_#2 ok - I'm back doing my bulletin board - three's enough!
David Heise A simple piece of (old) technology that I would like to see in this program is a photograph of each participant. I find the web directory invaluable in picturing souls I may have met once in a whirlwind orientation experience last summer.
Dan Applegate_#2 David, I agree. I thought some of our pictures are on the leadership web site
Mario Ochoa I will send one via my typewriter
Instructor_#2 David - but can't people look at those on our web page
David Heise I found a web site once that would convert a gif file, say your picture, into ASCII art, which you *could* type out on a typewriter. :)
Dan Applegate_#2 :) Is this internet lingo? I assume it means a smile.
David Heise Shirley, we have pictures for people who have never responded to a request for permission to show them on the web.
Mario Ochoa At Christmas time I get a lot of "pictures" typed on the screen
David Heise happy :) sad :( other happy :-) sly happy ;)
Instructor_#2 David - that is NOT good!
Instructor_#2 I mean the pictures with no permission
Mario Ochoa Seriously, I will send a picture. I am sorry I didn't sent it when you requested it David.
David Heise :) means only kidding, which you would convey with body language if we were conversing in person.
Dan Applegate_#2 oh, thank you for the insight
Mario Ochoa So, now that we have this tool activated, when can we talk about the Limerick article?, I need help understanding it.  It is sooo dense for me!
David Heise Seriously Shirley, I think that a distance learning Ph.D. in Leadership almost mandates that participants are competent in the use of technology. After Jaclyn Kostner's King Arthur presentation, I was sure we would all be proficient NetMeeting exponents by now.
<-<-<-<- Dan Applegate_#2 disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 21:15:59
David Heise Limerick? Please, someone tell me what processual means, in English. Or at least in Portuguese!
Instructor_#2 After this summer people will have to be competent - they won't get their banquet without signoff - now to Mario's question about limerick?
David Heise I studied it last weekend, and started out with a complaint about too many big words.
Instructor_#2 Processual - it appears to me that there is a growing consensus that workers need to have competence around various processes - like collaboration and communication and technology - rather than merely having some content knowledge down pat -
David Heise But on page 8 there were some bells ringing loudly when she talked about building trust, reminding me of King Arthur's Excalibur sword.
Instructor_#2 building trust is seriously processual -
Mario Ochoa I understood the processual word as an attempt to explain the outreaching focus of the necessary competencies
David Heise Yes. The context seems to suggest it means having to do with process. Page 9 says leadership needs to be characterised not by action but by process and relationship.
Instructor_#2 It's amazing to me that we are just now coming to this understanding - it seems so obvious!!
David Heise I really learned a lot in Dave Penner's Vision and Leadership Seminar last summer. Prior to that, these statements by Limerick would not have seemed so obvious to me.
Instructor_#2 I have wondered many times about the leadership program - especially when our critics think we don't have enough of a knowledge base - they can't seems to understand that the real value in this program comes from the various processes - and now with this technology we'll make significant leaps
Mario Ochoa Ditto here David, I am in page seven, the paragraph at the middle that starts with "Individuals", it seems that the interpersonal skills necessary to achieve the "processual" competency is a gradual process also.
Instructor_#2 I'm sorry my article is at the university but I think I still can talk about it :)
Mario Ochoa It should also include the "internal" connectivity of the different competencies we achieve along the process
Instructor_#2 Mario - do you mean the ways in which the different competencies are connected need to be internalized by each participant?
Mario Ochoa Or, in other words, the "maturity" level we achieve with the knowledge-experience dynamics in our own praxis. Whatever that praxis may be
David Heise I resonated with the last two pages before the NOTES section, but did not connect with any of the earlier stuff. Did anyone else? Do I have to did deeper?
Mario Ochoa Yes, I believe so Shirley.
David Heise Mario, you and Lara had some powerfully deep discussions that went way over my head. Tell me you could make at least some sense of the earlier part of Limerick's paper.
Mario Ochoa David, I was really frustrated at the beginning wit the article. Your posting in the Bulletin helped me to zero on the "processual" item and use that as a key base to understand the whole thing
Instructor_#2 Mario - that is the challenge - connecting the knowledge to experience in our own worlds - I wonder why that is so easy for some - and how do we facilitate that when it is not happening?
David Heise My answer is that our brains function differently. That was one of the messages from orientation. As leaders, we have to be confronted with the fact that not everyone is like us, maybe only a few are, but we still have to relate to them all.
Instructor_#2 and I also wonder/worry about those who haven't figured out ways to think about what they are learning -
Instructor_#2 But don't we want every participant to make this PhD experience one loaded with "praxis"? - am I using that the right way Mario?
David Heise While this may be Ph.D. program, for me personally it is an adventure in self discovery and development.
Instructor_#2 Yes - how did you come to that?
Instructor_#2 And how will you be sure that has happened?
Mario Ochoa Absolutely Shirley, for me a key paragraph is in page 3. the one that starts with "Problem-based learning" at the middle of the article. For me it says that if it works in the praxis, there must a good theory behind, it's just a matter of discovering it.
David Heise I am comfortable in personal situations now that used to terrorize me, staff relations situations, etc.
Mario Ochoa Isn't that "processual"?, meaning what we achieve "in" the process?
Instructor_#2 that's good David - and maybe what is needed David is what Mario is suggesting - when you have come to understand the theory behind the changes in your experience - you will be worthy of a PhD
David Heise Absolutely. And Absolutely.
David Heise I am not there yet by a long shot, but it is becoming increasingly clear to me that being successful in my job is more relational than almost anything else.
Instructor_#2 I'm in my dictionary - processual means functional, operational - the first meaning is "of or relating to a legal process"
Mario Ochoa One concern with the article, and the theory is why do we have to identify the "problem". One of the major beauties of the Leadership Program is that focuses in the "positive" in what we are competent about, and builds upon that base
Instructor_#2 So the real learning is in the "process"
Instructor_#2 Yes - and it seems to me that education must always build on what is known!
David Heise I was sitting in a waiting room this Tuesday reading a magazine I had brought with me, and a panel of CIOs was asked 2 questions. The first one was "what technology is most responsible for your success?"
Mario Ochoa A quality process
Instructor_#2 good point Mario
David Heise The answer was, "bad question". They put their success down to building trust and relationships.
Instructor_#2 wow - David isn't that good!!
Mario Ochoa I like that David
Instructor_#2 So - in the leadership program - what are the processes that build success and how are they working?
David Heise Shirley, I would like a transcript of this session. Could you extract it and email it to us?
Instructor_#2 Yes - I think I can do that - David - I will at least try :)
Mario Ochoa Ditto here Shirley. I would really appreciate a copy
Instructor_#2 that's how I learn - someone expects something of me - and I figure it out!! often with help!
David Heise For me, this started with being given some clear insights into what leadership is and is not.
Mario Ochoa One of the processes for me is in the first article, the speech, we need to be more of an embracing kind of leaders than a specialist one. Was that your point in the Bulletin David?
Mario Ochoa I meant, being a renaissance leader
David Heise It is not a process that seems intuitively to have value. I find I have to overcome the urge to be busy being busy, and just spend more time talking, communicating.
Instructor_#2 And it seems like we have better conversations when we are not necessarily specialists -
David Heise Which bulletin, Mario?
Instructor_#2 I think he means forum
Mario Ochoa Which for me translates into an "interrelation", where you can open up and be one with your peers, because you trust them intellectually and also pragmatically
Mario Ochoa I think you made a comment about the "specialization" aspect of the leader in the Forum One bulletin postings. Or perhaps it was Dan. I am not sure now
Instructor_#2 yes - that is the essence of where the faculty dreamed we would be - interacting - trusting - learning - etc - I really believe this technology is going to help us get there faster!!
David Heise The renaissance leader, interprofessional does capture much of the idea for me. When I first became CIO, I read that technology-focused CIOs had a high failure rate. They must focus on the business needs of the organization, not the technology.
Instructor_#2 Interesting - we have to keep the focus on the right things - people!
Instructor_#2 And it seems to me that much of the time - the people solve the problems in the organization - if we let them!
David Heise Dan and I shared some thoughts on this. I liked the idea that the interprofessional is still a professional.
Mario Ochoa Which incidentally David brings me to a pamphlet I got today from the Stanford Series on Management. They are offering videos on the use of technology for almost everything in management of human groups, videos by the likes of Bill Gates and other gurus
Instructor_#2 Wow - maybe that's what other academics don't get about this program - they think we're really not professionals because we are interdisciplinary
Mario Ochoa Why can't the Leadership Program put together some videos on Leadership?, for the students, for the Church leaders here and overseas?
David Heise Bill Gates has a powerful vision of a digital world. Technology can empower individuals and organizations to do things that are unimaginable or unthinkable without right tools.
Instructor_#2 Mario - that sounds like a praxis type of experience!! Let's do it!
David Heise Because if we don't do it, our competitors certainly will, and we lose.
Mario Ochoa I would love to participate on something like that
Mario Ochoa You are right David
Instructor_#2 Really - that has potential - think of a group of leadership participants - now that is problem-based learning at it's best
Instructor_#2 So Mario and David - how do we put that together? the video?
Mario Ochoa I also need a video on typing!:-)
David Heise I have a simple idea of change resulting from improved decision support resulting from a data warehouse. But change is never simple.
Instructor_#2 don't worry about mistakes - this is about communication!
David Heise A video? lots of silence...
Mario Ochoa One possibility would be to get together via this chat rooms, or in the Forums, and identify a group that can potentially meet at the summer session, and take it from there. We can brainstorm topics, presenters, and do it
Instructor_#2 sounds great - should we send that invitation out to leadall - as a take off from this course - so they know how we came to this idea! I think some other forums are also on the verge of some very enticing learning experiences
David Heise I think a leader who is going to bring about "revolutionary change" (Noel Tichy) has to be a visionary, be impassioned, almost be a zealot. At any rate, such a leader would have be totally immersed in what he/she is trying to bring about.
Instructor_#2 David - how would we convey that to leaders overseas - in the church - in education - in ADRA?
David Heise Actually meeting together and brainstorming would achieve results that even this interactive environment would struggle with. I think getting together during the Roundtable is a most excellent idea.
Mario Ochoa Short of actual seminars and workshops, videos is a great answer. People can own them for a reusable price and build their own library. And believe me, that is a tremendous need everywhere, ADRA included
Instructor_#2 Now we have two ideas for problem-based learning - one around technology and the other around generating a video that would have wide applicability
David Heise Shirley, it *should* not be too hard. The old idea of a "missionary" was just exactly this.
Instructor_#2 but missionaries missed the point on praxis - didn't they
David Heise There are all sorts of professionally produced videos on leadership. Richard Carey apparently has one he is going to bring to one of the Midwest Regional meetings.
Mario Ochoa Many of them imported "praxis" to a foreign praxis
Instructor_#2 yes - and then it really isn't praxis - if all we have done is make the "nationals" feel like our way is the only and right way -
Mario Ochoa Perhaps we can explore the field and see what is there, as part of the decision making process
David Heise Missionaries had no understanding of different other ways of thinking. They often tried to impose their answers to someone else's problems.
Instructor_#2 a web search would be a good start
Instructor_#2 we'd want the video to really mess with other perspectives - and open up lots of possibilities wouldn't we?
David Heise Some of the mail to crosses my desk promotes developmental videos. I don't know how broadly visionary they are.
Mario Ochoa Yes, it would be a good start. I have the suspicion that there are a lot of videos on "secular" leadership, not in the SDA arena. But that may be can of worms!? :-)
Instructor_#2 and how would that be accepted by people who have learned that someone else has all the answers - big people like Mario!!
Instructor_#2 I'm talking about other possibilities
David Heise It did not always go well for any of the parties. But some were what we now call true servant leaders, and accomplished much good.
Instructor_#2 seriously though - isn't the church just dying for that kind of leadership - the kind that gives people permission to figure out their own problems -
Mario Ochoa It is my own responsible position that you are absolutely right Shirley
Instructor_#2 :):):):):):now Mario - I need you to disagree with me!
David Heise Dying as in decaying and fading away, or dying to as in very eager to, or both???
Instructor_#2 both
David Heise Yup.
Mario Ochoa It is interesting that what is good leadership, at least in our ideas, here in the US, it's total revolution in some places overseas
Instructor_#2 like - are you saying Mario - that overseas people might really struggle with the servant leader type of concept
Instructor_#2 is it because power is such a big thing?
Mario Ochoa Absolutely, they have an inverted sense of servant leadership, they believe in that, as long as the servants are not them
Instructor_#2 :):):): I remember Pakistan all too vividly!
Mario Ochoa Control as a core part of power
Instructor_#2 so - what kind of video could we make??????
Mario Ochoa At least let's research it
David Heise You know, I have thoroughly enjoyed this experience, Mario and Shirley. I have learned a lot from, your questions and your answers. Some of your questions made me search inside for answers.
David Heise I am wrapping up now, have other things I must do tonight. Where have we left this? What have we said we would do, who, and when?
Instructor_#2 how do we portray this servant leader - isn't it amazing that Jesus is the ultimate servant leader and somehow we have lost sight of how he behaved and we have modeled ourselves after something else -
Mario Ochoa Should we quit now? I would really like to pursue this idea of a video series on SDA Leadership later
Instructor_#2 I'd suggest you throw the idea out to leadall -
Instructor_#2 we do need to stop for tonight but it has been VERY profitable!! - we could also put it out to MAIN in the bulletin board area
David Heise 1. Pull together a group to meet during Roundtable 99 to make this happen. Leadall would be good to pull in some interest.
Mario Ochoa I will send an e-mail to leadall on the subject. Perhaps we could "lobby" some of our other Forum Oners before?
Instructor_#2 goodnight all - I'll be watching to join Forum ONE again!!
Mario Ochoa Good night, thank you for your powerful thoughts!
Instructor_#2 good idea Mario
David Heise 2. Energize the "Leadership Task Force". Do this prior to the Roundtable, with a view to having some productive meetings there.
Mario Ochoa OK
David Heise Over and out.
David Heise and big thanks
Instructor_#2 plan for a prelim to be presented at RT
Mario Ochoa Ditto, out
Instructor_#2 out
<-<-<-<- David Heise disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 22:05:41
Instructor_#2 ok Mario - do you want to talk some more about this idea?
Instructor_#2 I'm checking out - will wait for your announcement on leadall -
<-<-<-<- Instructor_#2 disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 22:08:51
<-<-<-<- Instructor disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 22:09:33
<-<-<-<- Mario Ochoa disconnected at: Thu Mar 25 1999 22:15:00
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Created: Sunday, December 26, 1999 05:48 PM
Last Modified: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:33 PM